(05-04-2017, 03:51 AM)U.k Fan Wrote: [ -> ]Outside of Parkerd the other heavies like Fa, who is the best NZ best prospect?
I think Bowyn Morgan was pretty decent until he got complacent and was knocked out on one of the Duco undercards.
Panuve Helu is a MW knockout artist of sorts that could be one to watch
https://youtu.be/qjHTclTEB-E
Ricky Murphy - shane cameron protege.
https://youtu.be/jEHviX4lm5Y
Shaye brock is 10-0. WW. Will be on the juniir Fa card in May along with Murphy.
Mose Aumutagai is another SMW who could have a decent career.
These are the guys I think are the ones who have a chance of fighting for a Commonwealth or Austrlasian level title.
Main problem in nz is the quakity of trainers and the lack of emphasis on good defense and thinking about the sweet science. They uusually go out swinging for the fences to please the crowds as opposed to high level, above-basics boxing - it seems.
Nz is a rugby nation thru and thru, but boxing is growing in popularity and hopefully a higher standard of boxing is the corrollary, as they'll then look overseas with zeal and realize its not just swing to take someones head off but more that its hit and not get hit.
I also might be wrong, but it seems casual kiwis are into their ko artists like Tua, Thunder, Parker. (CCameron to a lesser extent). So crowds don't come out in drove to see great pure boxers like a RJJ type. This, I think, is why kids don't get into boxing for the sweet science as theres no real appreciation of it amongst kiwis except for hardcore fans. Ricky Murphy for example is a great boxer but is hardly a draw in this country. And with that lack of competition in Nz, those types end up going over to Australia, for example, under prepared and getting beaten by Aus gatekeepers and the like. Even Robert Berridge was only popular for a while because he was knocking nobodies out left right and Centre but was made to look atrocious at the hands of a above average Russian guy who was just using basic fundamentals to school him. I think it's a shame because kiwi boxers feel they need to go out and entertain the crowd and not focus on building on thier boxing basics. Hopefully it changes but I just can't see it happening.
Sorry to go on but I've thought about the state if nz boxing quite a bit, and why it's lacking in such a sporting rich country, with ggreat Polynesian physical specimens. But that is possibly one of the issues. . Problem is they are also heavyset guys, genetically. This means a shorter Polynesian, with large powerful legs etc will be already at their respective weight limit for the expense of height and reach. This means they certainly have power but lack some of the dimensions to be really competitive at the higher level. For example, you have some LWH that are standing at 6'3,6'4 and coming from a competitive boxing environment. A lot of the Polynesian lads will reach the LHW limit and pack power hut only stand at 5'8, 5'9. Panuve Helu, for example, is fighting at cruiser and is around 5'9. Just wouldn't have a shot against someone like Usyk etc. Who stands at 6'3 and is long and rangey. At Super heavy weight that's not a problem, hence why we have a few HW prospects as opposed to the lighter weight divisions. That's just my opinion though. ..would be interesting what other people think about that. .
Amazing reply, thanks for answering. I'll check those guys out.
Interesting insight on the Polynesian genetics. I suppose it might be different strokes for different blokes. Their build might be good for rugby but not so much for the hit and not get hit sweet science.
The NZ scene sounds similar to how the Uk had been for ages. You would get the occasional exception like Lennox Lewis and Joe Calzaghe who were really great boxers, but most were tough or brawling types like Hatton, Froch, Benn, Eubank. Good to hear it's growing in popularity though. Are Duco and Parker helping with that? I know Eddie Hearn and Carl Froch fighting George groves seemed to be a catalyst of sorts over here. Kids started seeing boxing as a viable option. Plus the London Olympics programme.
(05-04-2017, 09:13 AM)bopman Wrote: [ -> ] (05-04-2017, 05:20 AM)Justapakeha Wrote: [ -> ]I also might be wrong, but it seems casual kiwis are into their ko artists like Tua, Thunder, Parker. (CCameron to a lesser extent). So crowds don't come out in drove to see great pure boxers like a RJJ type. This, I think, is why kids don't get into boxing for the sweet science as theres no real appreciation of it amongst kiwis except for hardcore fans. Ricky Murphy for example is a great boxer but is hardly a draw in this country. And with that lack of competition in Nz, those types end up going over to Australia, for example, under prepared and getting beaten by Aus gatekeepers and the like. Even Robert Berridge was only popular for a while because he was knocking nobodies out left right and Centre but was made to look atrocious at the hands of a above average Russian guy who was just using basic fundamentals to school him. I think it's a shame because kiwi boxers feel they need to go out and entertain the crowd and not focus on building on thier boxing basics. Hopefully it changes but I just can't see it happening.
Sorry to go on but I've thought about the state if nz boxing quite a bit, and why it's lacking in such a sporting rich country, with ggreat Polynesian physical specimens. But that is possibly one of the issues. . Problem is they are also heavyset guys, genetically. This means a shorter Polynesian, with large powerful legs etc will be already at their respective weight limit for the expense of height and reach. This means they certainly have power but lack some of the dimensions to be really competitive at the higher level. For example, you have some LWH that are standing at 6'3,6'4 and coming from a competitive boxing environment. A lot of the Polynesian lads will reach the LHW limit and pack power hut only stand at 5'8, 5'9. Panuve Helu, for example, is fighting at cruiser and is around 5'9. Just wouldn't have a shot against someone like Usyk etc. Who stands at 6'3 and is long and rangey. At Super heavy weight that's not a problem, hence why we have a few HW prospects as opposed to the lighter weight divisions. That's just my opinion though. ..would be interesting what other people think about that. .
Wow, spot on mate.
Good post. NZ audiences have changed in the last 20 years with the influx of people from the south pacific Polynesian countries (albeit Jo Parker - Samoan), Jo sits outside the square in many ways because he can box. 15 or 20 years ago I was never worried if the other corner had Polynesians as we knew damn well they only had power and we coached our lot to handle the big punchers - we rarely lost. Nowadays at amateur level the younger set of Polynesians are learning to box and move well and coupled with a good chin (most of them) present a far different proposition than they once did, probably because most are 1st generation and domiciled in NZ and being taught specifics from better skilled coaches. What nz audiences prefer as in KO spectaculars could become more prevalent because of the skillset the new generation is acquiring from Jo Parker onwards, and learning how to set up a result.
(04-12-2017, 10:26 PM)justafan Wrote: [ -> ]Change to Cairo George's Singapore fight that's set for TV audience of 100 million
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/sport/91448716/change-to-cairo-georges-singapore-fight-thats-set-for-tv-audience-of-100-million
(05-04-2017, 11:14 AM)shamrock Wrote: [ -> ] (05-04-2017, 09:13 AM)bopman Wrote: [ -> ] (05-04-2017, 05:20 AM)Justapakeha Wrote: [ -> ]I also might be wrong, but it seems casual kiwis are into their ko artists like Tua, Thunder, Parker. (CCameron to a lesser extent). So crowds don't come out in drove to see great pure boxers like a RJJ type. This, I think, is why kids don't get into boxing for the sweet science as theres no real appreciation of it amongst kiwis except for hardcore fans. Ricky Murphy for example is a great boxer but is hardly a draw in this country. And with that lack of competition in Nz, those types end up going over to Australia, for example, under prepared and getting beaten by Aus gatekeepers and the like. Even Robert Berridge was only popular for a while because he was knocking nobodies out left right and Centre but was made to look atrocious at the hands of a above average Russian guy who was just using basic fundamentals to school him. I think it's a shame because kiwi boxers feel they need to go out and entertain the crowd and not focus on building on thier boxing basics. Hopefully it changes but I just can't see it happening.
Sorry to go on but I've thought about the state if nz boxing quite a bit, and why it's lacking in such a sporting rich country, with ggreat Polynesian physical specimens. But that is possibly one of the issues. . Problem is they are also heavyset guys, genetically. This means a shorter Polynesian, with large powerful legs etc will be already at their respective weight limit for the expense of height and reach. This means they certainly have power but lack some of the dimensions to be really competitive at the higher level. For example, you have some LWH that are standing at 6'3,6'4 and coming from a competitive boxing environment. A lot of the Polynesian lads will reach the LHW limit and pack power hut only stand at 5'8, 5'9. Panuve Helu, for example, is fighting at cruiser and is around 5'9. Just wouldn't have a shot against someone like Usyk etc. Who stands at 6'3 and is long and rangey. At Super heavy weight that's not a problem, hence why we have a few HW prospects as opposed to the lighter weight divisions. That's just my opinion though. ..would be interesting what other people think about that. .
Wow, spot on mate.
Good post. NZ audiences have changed in the last 20 years with the influx of people from the south pacific Polynesian countries (albeit Jo Parker - Samoan), Jo sits outside the square in many ways because he can box. 15 or 20 years ago I was never worried if the other corner had Polynesians as we knew damn well they only had power and we coached our lot to handle the big punchers - we rarely lost. Nowadays at amateur level the younger set of Polynesians are learning to box and move well and coupled with a good chin (most of them) present a far different proposition than they once did, probably because most are 1st generation and domiciled in NZ and being taught specifics from better skilled coaches. What nz audiences prefer as in KO spectaculars could become more prevalent because of the skillset the new generation is acquiring from Jo Parker onwards, and learning how to set up a result.
Yep, well hopefully the rise of good technicians like Nyika and the likes changes people's perception of what boxing should be. I must say, it's rare to see a high level, technical fight in NZ and even if there is a boxer who is trying to focus on 'the sweet science', they more often than not are forced to box against guys hell bent on just taking their heads off; so they don't get that good work at the professional level. Maybe in the amateur ranks it's a little different, but I guess that then comes down to the quantity and quality of kiwi trainers. It's a shame though, because those technical boxers, if they get past the aggressive boxers in NZ, seem to get unstuck when they come up against Aussies and the like, who don't come forward swinging for the fences, and the kiwis havn't had that experience in 'creating openings' (sorry I'm not too knowledgeable in the boxing parlance) as opposed to just counter punching the guys coming forward with fire in their eyes. The Morgan/Kris George knockout on the Parker undercard not long ago was testament to that. The Aussie guy just paced himself and used basic fundamentals, Morgan looked as if he'd never experienced such a style; and you got the feeling he thought he was being a 'stink guy' if he boxed and didn't give the audience what they wanted - a highlight reel KO. And we all saw what happened there - he was knocked out by a jab as he was leaping in recklessly looking for the spectacular knock-out - literally. And he was basically our second best prospect at the time behind Jo; it's a worry that an experienced boxer like Morgan thought he needed to fight so risky as opposed to putting on a clinic.
I think the kiwi boxers need to realise it's okay to box in a way that would seem boring to the general public, and focus on their skills for their own development. I know we live in a tall poppy syndrome society, where if you try to be technical and not a David Tua reincarnate, you will be branded a 'wannabe Ali' or something similar. I think guys like Ruiz and Horn fighting in NZ and the public being exposed to that technical style can only be a good thing, and hopefully they'll appreciate it more. I think a lot of Joseph fans appreciated the way Ruiz fought. Hopefully the new generation take heed.
As you said - the younger Polynesian guys are starting to become interested in the sweeter science - as opposed to being the next KO artist. Hopefully they get the quality coaching to go with it. Like blocking punches with your arms, not your head! And believing it's okay to move around the ring like a boxer and not feel like your a 'try-hard' or anything. They need to realise that boxing is delicate as it is brutal; every punch, every head movement, each feign, each movement of the foot is important and needs micro management and just as much attention as the big 'hail Marys'. Simply put, fighting to win a boxing match - not to decapitate! To use a rugby analogy : you don't just walk back and run in and boot the ball through the posts - there's a sequence and a method and a psychology involved. We're good at that - Just have to transfer that sort of careful, perfectionist thinking to the boxing ring.
(05-04-2017, 11:24 PM)Justapakeha Wrote: [ -> ] (04-12-2017, 10:26 PM)justafan Wrote: [ -> ]Change to Cairo George's Singapore fight that's set for TV audience of 100 million
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/sport/91448716/change-to-cairo-georges-singapore-fight-thats-set-for-tv-audience-of-100-million
(05-04-2017, 11:14 AM)shamrock Wrote: [ -> ] (05-04-2017, 09:13 AM)bopman Wrote: [ -> ] (05-04-2017, 05:20 AM)Justapakeha Wrote: [ -> ]I also might be wrong, but it seems casual kiwis are into their ko artists like Tua, Thunder, Parker. (CCameron to a lesser extent). So crowds don't come out in drove to see great pure boxers like a RJJ type. This, I think, is why kids don't get into boxing for the sweet science as theres no real appreciation of it amongst kiwis except for hardcore fans. Ricky Murphy for example is a great boxer but is hardly a draw in this country. And with that lack of competition in Nz, those types end up going over to Australia, for example, under prepared and getting beaten by Aus gatekeepers and the like. Even Robert Berridge was only popular for a while because he was knocking nobodies out left right and Centre but was made to look atrocious at the hands of a above average Russian guy who was just using basic fundamentals to school him. I think it's a shame because kiwi boxers feel they need to go out and entertain the crowd and not focus on building on thier boxing basics. Hopefully it changes but I just can't see it happening.
Sorry to go on but I've thought about the state if nz boxing quite a bit, and why it's lacking in such a sporting rich country, with ggreat Polynesian physical specimens. But that is possibly one of the issues. . Problem is they are also heavyset guys, genetically. This means a shorter Polynesian, with large powerful legs etc will be already at their respective weight limit for the expense of height and reach. This means they certainly have power but lack some of the dimensions to be really competitive at the higher level. For example, you have some LWH that are standing at 6'3,6'4 and coming from a competitive boxing environment. A lot of the Polynesian lads will reach the LHW limit and pack power hut only stand at 5'8, 5'9. Panuve Helu, for example, is fighting at cruiser and is around 5'9. Just wouldn't have a shot against someone like Usyk etc. Who stands at 6'3 and is long and rangey. At Super heavy weight that's not a problem, hence why we have a few HW prospects as opposed to the lighter weight divisions. That's just my opinion though. ..would be interesting what other people think about that. .
Wow, spot on mate.
Good post. NZ audiences have changed in the last 20 years with the influx of people from the south pacific Polynesian countries (albeit Jo Parker - Samoan), Jo sits outside the square in many ways because he can box. 15 or 20 years ago I was never worried if the other corner had Polynesians as we knew damn well they only had power and we coached our lot to handle the big punchers - we rarely lost. Nowadays at amateur level the younger set of Polynesians are learning to box and move well and coupled with a good chin (most of them) present a far different proposition than they once did, probably because most are 1st generation and domiciled in NZ and being taught specifics from better skilled coaches. What nz audiences prefer as in KO spectaculars could become more prevalent because of the skillset the new generation is acquiring from Jo Parker onwards, and learning how to set up a result.
Yep, well hopefully the rise of good technicians like Nyika and the likes changes people's perception of what boxing should be. I must say, it's rare to see a high level, technical fight in NZ and even if there is a boxer who is trying to focus on 'the sweet science', they more often than not are forced to box against guys hell bent on just taking their heads off; so they don't get that good work at the professional level. Maybe in the amateur ranks it's a little different, but I guess that then comes down to the quantity and quality of kiwi trainers. It's a shame though, because those technical boxers, if they get past the aggressive boxers in NZ, seem to get unstuck when they come up against Aussies and the like, who don't come forward swinging for the fences, and the kiwis havn't had that experience in 'creating openings' (sorry I'm not too knowledgeable in the boxing parlance) as opposed to just counter punching the guys coming forward with fire in their eyes. The Morgan/Kris George knockout on the Parker undercard not long ago was testament to that. The Aussie guy just paced himself and used basic fundamentals, Morgan looked as if he'd never experienced such a style; and you got the feeling he thought he was being a 'stink guy' if he boxed and didn't give the audience what they wanted - a highlight reel KO. And we all saw what happened there - he was knocked out by a jab as he was leaping in recklessly looking for the spectacular knock-out - literally. And he was basically our second best prospect at the time behind Jo; it's a worry that an experienced boxer like Morgan thought he needed to fight so risky as opposed to putting on a clinic.
I think the kiwi boxers need to realise it's okay to box in a way that would seem boring to the general public, and focus on their skills for their own development. I know we live in a tall poppy syndrome society, where if you try to be technical and not a David Tua reincarnate, you will be branded a 'wannabe Ali' or something similar. I think guys like Ruiz and Horn fighting in NZ and the public being exposed to that technical style can only be a good thing, and hopefully they'll appreciate it more. I think a lot of Joseph fans appreciated the way Ruiz fought. Hopefully the new generation take heed.
As you said - the younger Polynesian guys are starting to become interested in the sweeter science - as opposed to being the next KO artist. Hopefully they get the quality coaching to go with it. Like blocking punches with your arms, not your head! And believing it's okay to move around the ring like a boxer and not feel like your a 'try-hard' or anything. They need to realise that boxing is delicate as it is brutal; every punch, every head movement, each feign, each movement of the foot is important and needs micro management and just as much attention as the big 'hail Marys'. Simply put, fighting to win a boxing match - not to decapitate! To use a rugby analogy : you don't just walk back and run in and boot the ball through the posts - there's a sequence and a method and a psychology involved. We're good at that - Just have to transfer that sort of careful, perfectionist thinking to the boxing ring.
Nicely put - the part about boxing being as delicate as it is brutal was very true.
Funding is crucial for development. Invest in grass roots boxing and it will produce good trainers and good results. It helps if you have someone to look up to, which NZ has in Parker. Someone to be a role model for boxing. A gym local to myself has junior coaching on Sunday afternoons, they get around 7-8 kids. Last Sunday after the Joshua fight, 37 showed up.
Interesting thoughts above which I will add to at some stage but anyone know what happened to Mose Auimatagi Jr???
Was meant to fight Josh Hatherley but must have pulled out as Hatherley lost to Jerome Pascua???
Thanks Naki, I hadn't seen the story in the undercard fights. Bloody shame has Mose is class. Be interesting to see what it was that made him pull out as it was a big opportunity to shine in a fight he would have won. If its injury hopefully he is back soon